Stone Roses

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leon
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Re: Stone Roses

Post by leon » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:52

Is the one in the middle at the back Andy Cousens from The High?

I once worked with someone who (allegedly) worked in Liverpool Our Price with the guy in the red coat, who was Mani's predecessor I think.
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Re: Stone Roses

Post by bocken » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:12

leon wrote:Is the one in the middle at the back Andy Cousens from The High?

I once worked with someone who (allegedly) worked in Liverpool Our Price with the guy in the red coat, who was Mani's predecessor I think.
Yep, back row: Reni, Andy Couzens, Pete Garner, front row: Ian Brown, John Squire.

The first single (So Young/Tell Me) was on that ropey Complete Stone Roses compilation Silvertone made. It's not that good.

Which brings me to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQYg4Jq_DX8

Words fail me. Peter Hook and Clint Boon are partly responsible for this. I assume Bonehead was down the jobcentre that day.

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Re: Stone Roses

Post by kofi » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:33

I think the reference to 'genre-hopping early years' was about the pre-Sally Cinnamon days. If I remember rightly from John Robb's book they were going since the early 80's, started out playing punk covers, clearly went a bit goth, and then the Garage Flower stuff from '85 ish is sort of a genre all by itself.
a layer of chips wrote: I've NEVER got how The Stone Roses were in any way linked to dance music, but they're irrevocably linked to that whole Second Summer of Love bollocks (which was actually 1988 anyway, wasnt it?). If they were into all that, then 'Fools Gold' missed the boat by at a couple of years anyway. And you ever tried dancing to 'Fools Gold'? It's impossible. You look like a lost goat.
I might be splicing secondary sources here, but it was a classic example of press hype to sell music papers wasn't it? After the mid-80's indie boom fizzled, post-Smiths, there was a period in 87-88 when new writers at the NME started championing hip-hop and dance music. Trouble is, and this is unfortunately still true today (eg. for fashion mags), if you put black artists on the cover you sell less copies. Plus pre-Big Beat there was alot of snobbery about the so-called faceless nature of dance music, and it didn't have trad rock-band appeal. Necessity is the mother of Madchester, or something.

It would be pretty dull if bands weren't allowed to change their sound, but still it looked a bit dodgy when twee bands like Primal Scream/Soup Dragons/James and post-punk bands like The Farm/Happy Mondays went dance. With the Mondays it was more integral to their sound I think. As has been said, with The Stone Roses it was sort-of just the one song. They were hugely influenced by The Clash, after all, so maybe Fools Gold was their Rock The Casbah? They came up with a riff and rolled with it, if you'll pardon the expression.

There is a whole other tangent about how black music (in this case Detroit Techno, and its offshoots) is only accepted by mainstream society once white musicians have homaged it - see also jazz, blues, roots reggae, old school hip-hop - but I think Simon Reynolds or Charles Shaar Murray or someone has already written about that better than I ever could.

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Re: Stone Roses

Post by Colin » Tue Oct 25, 2011 13:20

kofi wrote:There is a whole other tangent about how black music (in this case Detroit Techno, and its offshoots) is only accepted by mainstream society once white musicians have homaged it - see also jazz, blues, roots reggae, old school hip-hop - but I think Simon Reynolds or Charles Shaar Murray or someone has already written about that better than I ever could.
Humousexual wrote a song about exactly that.

Lyrics here (third one down): http://everardrecords.com/humousexual/lyrics.html

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Re: Stone Roses

Post by leon » Tue Oct 25, 2011 14:49

Colin wrote: Humousexual wrote a song about exactly that.

Lyrics here (third one down): http://everardrecords.com/humousexual/lyrics.html
My works internet blocked me from following that link, as it was deemed "Offensive and Tasteless". I like it already.
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Re: Stone Roses

Post by Colin » Tue Oct 25, 2011 15:35

leon wrote:
Colin wrote: Humousexual wrote a song about exactly that.

Lyrics here (third one down): http://everardrecords.com/humousexual/lyrics.html
My works internet blocked me from following that link, as it was deemed "Offensive and Tasteless". I like it already.
:)
Here's the lyrics:
don't be slack, all yr music's black | queens pose and preen at trade and nag nag nag: beats and amnesia is their bag. gay white forgetfulness is a drag when all their house and techno came from black detroit fags. it's always pumping in the percussion, they shake tush and they never stop to wonder how the beats got there. it never comes up in their discussions, i ain't fussin: to me it's strange to drift on and not be aware. pan to the london indiepop punk scene: now, i don't own one northern soul lp, but we can see the ancestery from jazz and blues to shit today and all in between, so props to the motown sound, the underground, the stuff they did that spawned all those black and white smiles. big business might own it now, but it's too loud to be forgot by all the freak audiophiles. humousexual's happy to admit, with no black music we'd be twice as shit: if nazi hardcore boys could see it, we'd have a better world with more smiles innit? so know what you're listening to, what it's been through: be chuffed as fuck that these folks decided to share. i ain't saying you should change your taste, just cogitate how there's a wealth of beautiful history there. don't be slack, all your music's black. know what you're listening to.

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Re: Stone Roses

Post by kofi » Tue Oct 25, 2011 16:13

*salutes*

*and makes mental note to check out Humousexual*

(reading those lyrics has also made me want to listen to Nation of Ulysses, and the MC5, not sure exactly why)

at the risk of heading further off-topic, I feel I should doff a respectful cap to Kraftwerk at this point. but enough already.

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Re: Stone Roses

Post by everard » Tue Oct 25, 2011 16:17

Colin wrote:
leon wrote:My works internet blocked me from following that link, as it was deemed "Offensive and Tasteless". I like it already.
:)
how bizarre! guess it was either their lyrical use of "fags", "faggots", "queers" etc getting flagged as homophobic or your work internet is very muso & finds their sonic shonkiness offensive.

re. the stone roses: loved them at the time & i still listen to the turns into stone compilation sometimes but the s/t album mainly bores me now. too young to see them the first time round, but saw them in manchester in 1995, where my friend got punched for wearing an oasis t-shirt. personally i could only advocate a rap across the knuckles from the fashion police: fisticuffs seemed an overreaction.

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Re: Stone Roses

Post by leon » Tue Oct 25, 2011 17:20

All sorts of stuff is blocked - computer game reviews, dating sites, betting sites. I do work for the Council though which might account for the strictness. It even blocked a "Screen printing starter kit" claiming it was illegal.

That first sentence doesn't describe my life by the way. I just happen to have discovered these facts over time. Ahem.
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Re: Stone Roses

Post by a layer of chips » Tue Oct 25, 2011 19:19

kofi wrote:
I might be splicing secondary sources here, but it was a classic example of press hype to sell music papers wasn't it? After the mid-80's indie boom fizzled, post-Smiths, there was a period in 87-88 when new writers at the NME started championing hip-hop and dance music. Trouble is, and this is unfortunately still true today (eg. for fashion mags), if you put black artists on the cover you sell less copies. Plus pre-Big Beat there was alot of snobbery about the so-called faceless nature of dance music, and it didn't have trad rock-band appeal. Necessity is the mother of Madchester, or something.

It would be pretty dull if bands weren't allowed to change their sound, but still it looked a bit dodgy when twee bands like Primal Scream/Soup Dragons/James and post-punk bands like The Farm/Happy Mondays went dance. With the Mondays it was more integral to their sound I think. As has been said, with The Stone Roses it was sort-of just the one song. They were hugely influenced by The Clash, after all, so maybe Fools Gold was their Rock The Casbah? They came up with a riff and rolled with it, if you'll pardon the expression.
True enough, yeah. I don't think it does to over analyse the Madchester stuff too much, because I don't think that's what it was about. And, listening to it now, most of it sounds really quite terrible. I never saw the dance element to any of it, though. I was especially mystified - and still am in the low moments I think about it - as to how 'Bummed' by Happy Mondays was hailed as some kind of dance-inspired masterpiece. I've not listened to that album for years and years now, but just cos Paul Oakenfold got hold of one of the tracks and put a vaguely dance background to one of the songs from it, doesn't mean it's a dance album. To me, 'Bummed' sounded more like a Captain Beefheart album played by a load of indie kids, or something. There - that's my review.

I probably just overanalysed it.

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Re: Stone Roses

Post by linus » Tue Oct 25, 2011 20:03

I don't think the mondays or new order or primal scream thought 'this dance music thing's just the ticket, mr wilson/mr mcgee says if we record some of this rhythm music we'll sell loads to middle england who are just waiting from some fresh faced white folk like us to homogenise black music and make it more palatable', I think they took on 'dance elements' because they were bored with the musical form they'd started of with or because that's what they were listening to predominantly

I agree the mondays do sound like a band playing another music or another five musics wrong and that's the charm or was the charm even if it's a bit dull and tarnished and well-worn now

and back then folks just like sam and indeed me were bemoaning the fact that are our ace northern soul moves just didn't work in a rave environment... all you had to do at a rave was look 'on one matey', sweat, gurn and wave about a bit... that's not dancing, that's the fag end of a very long evangelical christian aerobicise weekend

and you could also do that to 'fools good' and 'are you touching my melon, sir?'

those were the moves you could do, but nobody went to a rave or an indie-dance night to show off their moves, they went to have a good time and take drugs- getting all len goodman on the poor ravers seems a bit unfair

but there definitely were records back then you could have a proper dance to and still can, try 'perfume' by paris angels, for example

I can assure you there was a link between the roses and dance music because I saw people who liked one and that led them to the other and it wasn't all one way from the roses to dance music, it definitely went the other way too

definitely

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Re: Stone Roses

Post by linus » Tue Oct 25, 2011 20:08

christ! I remember one lad- it's choking me up just writing this now- who was mad into the roses one week and the next was into acid jazz

that's what the stone roses drove people to

they should be fucking locked up sharpish

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Re: Stone Roses

Post by a layer of chips » Tue Oct 25, 2011 20:11

Anecdotal evidence is all well and good, and I saw that too (a couple of people I know got into 808 State and after we went to see Happy Mondays play with them), but I also saw people who went completely the other way. Myself included. I'm clearly some kind of racist who hates dance music.

"Dance music" is all relative, innit? White boys like me call that stuff with repetitive beats dance music, when, really, I know fuck all about it. Nor do I really want to because I can't be that arsed. But I suppose dance music is music you can dance to.

In summary: Slowdive never went dance.

That lad was you, wasn't it? You still keep your goatee in a locket.

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Re: Stone Roses

Post by linus » Tue Oct 25, 2011 20:29

it was rob galliano's goatee, I was holding it for a friend

(acid jazzers will piss themselves stupid at this bon mot by me)

when does empirical evidence become anecdotal evidence and then, as a consequence, rubbish evidence?

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Re: Stone Roses

Post by Jangloid Mark » Tue Oct 25, 2011 21:24

kofi wrote:There is a whole other tangent about how black music (in this case Detroit Techno, and its offshoots) is only accepted by mainstream society once white musicians have homaged it - see also jazz, blues, roots reggae, old school hip-hop - but I think Simon Reynolds or Charles Shaar Murray or someone has already written about that better than I ever could.
I may be WAY off the mark here, but, surely, that's as much about *gag* marketing than anything else?

I do think that this is especially true today when you look at how music is marketed. Everything has to fit in a nice little package. There is no rule set in stone that black teenagers can't form an indie band, nor is there a rule that white teens can't rap...but, especially in the former case, I would imagine that, sadly, it would be much more difficult to convince those that push music that it could be a winning ticket.

An example from days past working in the record shop...the Credit To The Nation records would always be put in the indie section - for the simple reason that if they got put in the hip-hop section, they would just sit there, but, they sold from the indie section...
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Re: Stone Roses

Post by indiansummer » Wed Oct 26, 2011 00:41

music zone in liverpool used to put the best of bad brains in their 'urban' section

off-topic? never heard of it, mate, that fella over there might be able to help you, etc
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Re: Stone Roses

Post by a layer of chips » Thu Oct 27, 2011 13:33

Shane Meadows is directing the Stone Roses reunion documentary. Kill yr Idols.

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Re: Stone Roses

Post by linus » Thu Oct 27, 2011 13:45

he made 'le donk and scor-say-zee' (or whatever the fuck it was called) previously that was enough to make me approach everything since with some caution and trepidation

same for paddy 'could previously do no wrong' considine

they've feet of cheese just like the rest of us

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