gender equality and indiepop

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ketameaningless
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by ketameaningless » Sat Aug 04, 2012 20:59

well, why are any of us posting anything, in the grand scheme? there is no point talking, or even thinking in words, and no understanding anything

i felt it fed in to the discussion?
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Arthur » Sat Aug 04, 2012 21:27

Once you've all worked out why there's not enough females in Indiepop, and how we can even the balance, and why it's so important that we do, could you then work out why there's not an equal balance of black and white people in indiepop. And when you've sorted that, we need an equal balance of transexual/gay/bi-sexual/straight people, and when that's sorted, how about people with disabilities/people without disabilities and nice equal balance of those things would be lovely please...
if you could just sort all that out for starters, that'd be great thanks.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by knibbles » Sat Aug 04, 2012 21:38

Arthur wrote:Once you've all worked out why there's not enough females in Indiepop, and how we can even the balance, and why it's so important that we do, could you then work out why there's not an equal balance of black and white people in indiepop. And when you've sorted that, we need an equal balance of transexual/gay/bi-sexual/straight people, and when that's sorted, how about people with disabilities/people without disabilities and nice equal balance of those things would be lovely please...
if you could just sort all that out for starters, that'd be great thanks.
Yeah, that would be great, maybe you should start a thread about each of those issues and we can discuss them with you.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by a layer of chips » Sun Aug 05, 2012 07:01

boney wrote:I'm waiting til Kate Nash goes all hip hop and changes her name to Nate Kash.
I think Joanna Gruesome should change their name to Kate Gash.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by indiansummer » Sun Aug 05, 2012 13:09

ketameaningless wrote:i'm gonna guess that you are the guitarist out of town bike who looks a bit like a Ken Doll. (no offense).
nope, sorry. i'm not in town bike. i did play keyboard on one song on the album though. a factoid which will be thrilling to many, i'm sure

so there you go
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by boney » Sun Aug 05, 2012 14:41

ketameaningless wrote:'
i've offered little in the way of conclusion or constructive contribution there'


what do you think this is, the world? we're on the internet here. you're supposed to be talking shit.


i'm gonna guess that you are the guitarist out of town bike who looks a bit like a Ken Doll. (no offense). Now be honest here Ken, when we played together in Sheffield for Dan, were you thinking 'hmmm, how does this show reflect on the inherent statistical gender inequality in indiepop?'. or were you were you thinking 'fucking hell, look at Kate Bisson's tits over there. Oh i love this bit this is where i GO 'der ner ner DOOBLY DOOBLY DOO!!! on my guitar'?

because frankly, I was sort of thinking 'hey, that's Emma Kupa! Emma came to see us! Yay! I wonder if that's the girl Crystal Palatial is about? she looks lovely! what songs next? oh i ove this one cos i get to go DER NER NER DOOBLY DOOBLY DOO' on my guitar. hmmm, must remember to pout into the lights during the next bit. whoops, clare dropped a beat, she must have been looking at my arse. or maybe she was looking at al's arse. shit, maybe she was looking at KATE'S arse...whoops, played a bum note there. hope Emma Koopa didnt notice THAT bit'...

let's be honest, pop music is about shagging, and the notion that everything is political is a complete and utter load of fucking tosswank.


and whoever asked me if i think analysis of gender is pointless...i think analysis of ANYTHING is pointless. and when i wrote 'boys i wanna kill', or 'why girlfriends are better than guitars', i wasn't thinking about ANY of this bollocks. i was just thinking about sex. that picture of me dressed up as a girl on the cover of 'boys in eyeliner', i didn't take it special or anything, i just happened to have it lying around from a night when i went and got twatted dressed as a girl and we got thrown out of a nightclub. then she stuck her feet in my mouth. we got a promo copy of the first los cam album. it was my birthday. we had such a wicked time. we fell asleep with 'heathers' on repeat. it was gorgeous.

so all i am saying is, it's all a lot of fun, until someone introduces charts, and graphs, and statistics, and then it gets boring.

: ) i love you all
Everything is political, you can make your world and the world of those you interact with a place that is better through how you choose to act, and analysis is part of that. I say this as someone who has far too much fun. It doesn't preclude you wanting to act in certain ways and valuing certain things such as inclusivity, aiming for equality, wanting people to be in a warm and encouraging environment open to all regardless of accidents of birth, their race, gender, sexuality, etc. That is why I'm here, to avoid boorish macho assholism, to not have to worry about friends being groped at gigs, to not have to worry about aggro etc.

The DIY scenes have always been about this, trying to do the world better than the bumheads who ruin it for everyone normally.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by ketameaningless » Sun Aug 05, 2012 19:17

'Everything is political, you can make your world and the world of those you interact with a place that is better through how you choose to act, and analysis is part of that. I say this as someone who has far too much fun. It doesn't preclude you wanting to act in certain ways and valuing certain things such as inclusivity, aiming for equality, wanting people to be in a warm and encouraging environment open to all regardless of accidents of birth, their race, gender, sexuality, etc. That is why I'm here, to avoid boorish macho assholism, to not have to worry about friends being groped at gigs, to not have to worry about aggro etc.

The DIY scenes have always been about this, trying to do the world better than the bumheads who ruin it for everyone normally.'


i totally respect all of those ideas but they seem like things that should come as standard or occur naturally in humans, and once they are falsely legislated for i find that stultifying to free thought. because the whole point is that you should be judging the music on the music and not on the people making it. it's the old anti fascist paradox.

to be honest i find the notion that these values are somehow only found in sanctified indie scenes to be a bit ridiculous.

i kissed a girl and i liked it hope my boyfriend doesnt mind it. born this way. it's saying the same thing about the same issues to a lot more people.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by indiehorse » Sun Aug 05, 2012 20:09

ketameaningless wrote:i kissed a girl and i liked it hope my boyfriend doesnt mind it. born this way. it's saying the same thing about the same issues to a lot more people.
I'm sorry, but Perry singing about kissing a girl does about as much for gender or sexual equality as a lads mag publishing a photo of two glamour models necking does.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by boney » Sun Aug 05, 2012 20:32

ketameaningless wrote:'Everything is political, you can make your world and the world of those you interact with a place that is better through how you choose to act, and analysis is part of that. I say this as someone who has far too much fun. It doesn't preclude you wanting to act in certain ways and valuing certain things such as inclusivity, aiming for equality, wanting people to be in a warm and encouraging environment open to all regardless of accidents of birth, their race, gender, sexuality, etc. That is why I'm here, to avoid boorish macho assholism, to not have to worry about friends being groped at gigs, to not have to worry about aggro etc.

The DIY scenes have always been about this, trying to do the world better than the bumheads who ruin it for everyone normally.'


i totally respect all of those ideas but they seem like things that should come as standard or occur naturally in humans, and once they are falsely legislated for i find that stultifying to free thought. because the whole point is that you should be judging the music on the music and not on the people making it. it's the old anti fascist paradox.

to be honest i find the notion that these values are somehow only found in sanctified indie scenes to be a bit ridiculous.

i kissed a girl and i liked it hope my boyfriend doesnt mind it. born this way. it's saying the same thing about the same issues to a lot more people.
They're not ONLY found in "sanctified indie scenes". This is about how you want communities you engage with to operate, your chance to avoid things you think are unfair in wider society.

Those things don't occur naturally in humans, sadly. So people like to engage with other likeminds to form enclaves that greater adhere to their worldviews, to try to function and interact in ways that people are cool with.

"Falsely legislating"? Who's doing that? I think it's good to be aware of imbalances/inequalities and *positively encourage*, in a non-quota/tokenistic way, to correct these imbalances, which are caused, nay legislated for, by existing social institutions i.e. media, school, government, the persistence of stereotypical gender norms etc. And you can aim for a balanced bill without compromising on the music.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by ShaunBrilldream » Mon Aug 06, 2012 00:07

boney wrote:
ketameaningless wrote: That is why I'm here, to avoid boorish macho assholism, to not have to worry about friends being groped at gigs, to not have to worry about aggro etc.

The DIY scenes have always been about this, trying to do the world better than the bumheads who ruin it for everyone normally.
Amen to that.

On a total digression, I'm thinking of starting a band called Kim Mild.
And we just can't wait to make more mistakes and to fluff our breaks, and to stuff our faces with cake.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Jangloid Mark » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:43

I come to this very interesting thread late...

Hmmm...my own thoughts in a nutshell are that while there is always room for improvement, and you can never be complacent, I do think that things are far, FAR better in the indiepop world than in the mainstream...

From the initial statistics, taking the rawest data, the male:female split is 70:30.

I would venture to suggest that if you look at the gender make up of indiepop bands, it would come out not too far from that.

As said, the reasons for the skew go way beyond indiepop, promoters etc.....this comes from conditioning in wider society...

Another twist on this (nd I'm sure that I'm covering old ground here), is that I think part of the reason things are a little more gender balanced than in wider society is BECAUSE we are so niche.

I don't mean that in a snobbish way...I think that a lot of indiepop could be very accessible to the mainstream if they actually HEARD it...and, as others have said, I've found the indiepop world nothing but accepting...

But, here's the thing...and this is especially true these days, to end up in this niche little world, you have had to be actively looking for it....or at least looking for SOMETHING...

That is something that most people don't actively do...yeah...I've had friends in the mainstream clicking 'like' when I've posted, say, Special one' by Ultra Vivid Scene' on Facebook when they've listened and indeed liked, but, that's about as far as it goes...

In my opinion, many of the people that end up here tend to be, to a greater or lesser extent, misfits in wider society, a little bit geeky, a little 'anoraky' (I'm talking the gathering of knowledge for minutae here rather than the garment), for want of better phrases....

That is no way meant to be an insult...quite the opposite in fact...

It occurs to me that such people, more often than not will be open to a mindset a little away from the mainstream. For example, I saw Camera Obscura a couple of years ago at a festival in Cardiff...there were arseholes near the front shouting 'get your tits out'. Can you imagine that at one of their own gigs?

Talking about Camera Obscura, hard to believe now, and this backs up the point that Trev was making earlier, but, when I fell in love with their music, I had absolutely no idea what they looked like. The same is true for a lot of bands...sure, with the internet, you can find out quickly enough, but, generally, you hear nd like the music first...another aspect of the indiepop world being that little bit invisible...

Now that I've rambled on for ages, I haven't said half of what I initially intended to say...
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by ketameaningless » Mon Aug 06, 2012 23:36

', in a non-quota/tokenistic way'


well that's the important thing for me. i'd hate the genital police to stop anyone going on stage because they have a dick.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by boney » Tue Aug 07, 2012 00:30

ketameaningless wrote:', in a non-quota/tokenistic way'


well that's the important thing for me. i'd hate the genital police to stop anyone going on stage because they have a dick.
Straw...person, dude.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by colinsmitten » Tue Aug 07, 2012 02:08

nice, mark! i always feel like an idiot when I read what I write, but i feel like it was about 10 or 15 years ago (if not more) that I figured out that the only way to have more "girl" bands or "girls in bands" was to encourage girls to form or join bands (or to do whatever it is they are into). Since then, I haven't started or joined a band that was all one-sided genderwise.

It is getting better, but I don;t think there actually is any one switch to flip. I feel like folks learn from example, and that as new kids grow up, the opportunity landscape seems to be much different than I remember.

keep up the good work, things that actually happen meaningfully either happen one band at a time or all at once. I like that as a loose and leaderless community, we are always in flux and trying our best.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Cloudy Cat » Tue Aug 07, 2012 09:01

Having grown up with punk and seeing women often try to desexualize themselves within that movement, for example bands like the Raincoats, Slits, Kleenex and the wonderful Poly Styrene refusing to conform to how males perceive them and then playing a tiny part in the Riot Grrrl scene in which there were some gigs which were women only, I feel somewhat depressed about how little impact these things have had in 2012.

So many pop videos portray women as little more than sex objects. Also many pop songs are littered with references to hos and bitches. If I was a girl bombarded with this nonsense I'd feel extremely frustrated and angry. It's like women's lib never happened.

It's not just males that propagate this but women too. Some Sugababes and Britney Spears videos should be PG. Some will argue that the women are in control and this maybe so but the images they are reinforcing are more detrimental to women than empowering. Women have every right to wear whatever they like but I feel that they should perhaps reflect on the impact of some of their more risque images on young girls who often want to emulate their pop idols.

Political consciousness in popular music is virtually invisible nowadays. Where are artists like X Ray Spex, Au Pairs, Billy Bragg, Poison Girls and the Redskins? In these times we need a politicized youth more than ever.

And where is there a club for TVs that plays indiepop?

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Jangloid Mark » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:20

Cloudy Cat wrote:Having grown up with punk and seeing women often try to desexualize themselves within that movement, for example bands like the Raincoats, Slits, Kleenex and the wonderful Poly Styrene refusing to conform to how males perceive them and then playing a tiny part in the Riot Grrrl scene in which there were some gigs which were women only, I feel somewhat depressed about how little impact these things have had in 2012.

So many pop videos portray women as little more than sex objects. Also many pop songs are littered with references to hos and bitches. If I was a girl bombarded with this nonsense I'd feel extremely frustrated and angry. It's like women's lib never happened.

It's not just males that propagate this but women too. Some Sugababes and Britney Spears videos should be PG. Some will argue that the women are in control and this maybe so but the images they are reinforcing are more detrimental to women than empowering. Women have every right to wear whatever they like but I feel that they should perhaps reflect on the impact of some of their more risque images on young girls who often want to emulate their pop idols.

Political consciousness in popular music is virtually invisible nowadays. Where are artists like X Ray Spex, Au Pairs, Billy Bragg, Poison Girls and the Redskins? In these times we need a politicized youth more than ever.

And where is there a club for TVs that plays indiepop?
I completely agree with this, Cloudy Cat...

The problem is partly that the market-men have got slicker and more powerful...and the range of what is 'aceptable' (IE that they'll put cash into) has narrowed....and, yeah, sex sells.

There is also a lack of a leg up by the media for anything that is even slightly different. In previous decades, John Peel was the most notable, but not the only way to get noticed...

If a new, challenging, exciting band came along tomorrow, there would nowhere in the mainstream to showcase them...oh, Jools Holland maybe, if they were a bit muso-ish...but, that's about it...

There are still bands that are kicking against the pricks, for want of a better expression, but, they're invisible to most people...

Looking at the top 40 today, yeah...it's like punk never happened....actually, I'll go further...it's like The Beatles never happened...
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by this clump of trees » Tue Aug 07, 2012 17:25

the mass culture is exhausted imo. the streams of commerce are glutted w/ the corpses of failed investments. there is to o much idle capital.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by thomasintrouble » Tue Aug 07, 2012 19:40

The Beatles are the problem here, not the solution!

A RANDOM Beatles lyric: "I'd rather see you dead, little girl / than to be with another man"

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by this clump of trees » Tue Aug 07, 2012 20:24

the beatles harken back to a golden age of capitalist production, before women entered the labor force en masse . that is why the beatles can take a threatening tone to the economically immobile "little girl" .

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Gordon » Tue Aug 07, 2012 20:26

It was just John Lennon really. Paul McCartney was mostly writing songs about his dog.
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