Twee - a discussion...

chunter on randomly
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RITH
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Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by RITH » Tue Aug 05, 2014 20:19

I did not mean to suggest that class and racism aren't strongly connected; they are in many ways. The point I tried to make was that being accused of being middle-class and being accused of being racist are two very different things, to me.

a layer of chips
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Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by a layer of chips » Tue Aug 05, 2014 20:23

I'm not closing anything down. Just trying to put my point forward. Probably shan't bother any more, like. Class and race isn't atomised, unlike two middle aged white blokes talking about it on the Internet. Almost pointless.

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Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by linus » Tue Aug 05, 2014 20:30

Oh, I wasn't saying that you were closing it down, although I appreciate that's how it reads now I look at what I wrote, but that wasn't my intent, apologies if it read that way, and yeh, it would be cool to have more voices, disparate voices on anorak, but it is what it is (and there's the rub), that's one of good things about other forms of social media that you can if you're open to it be exposed to many many different viewpoints (and super positive ones) and viewpoints outside of one's own experience... which sounds all very high faluting and probably I'm coming across as a dick but y'know, fair dos, I'm happy to fulfill that role

Anyway, I'll step off, if it wasn't for the joys of gastroenteritis I'd have been mute on this thread today

noLooking

Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by noLooking » Tue Aug 05, 2014 23:32

RITH wrote:Middle-class and racism are two things so very different, you can't compare them like this. I'm not completely familiar with the class system (where I live you're either rich or poor or somewhere in between), but you're born that way, aren't you? So if you're not born middle-class and someone says you are, you may feel offended.
A Fog of Ideas wrote:well, in terms of is indiepop routinely derided as being something of a middle class pursuit? yeh, I can relate to that, it doesn't match with my own experience of going to gigs, meeting bands, working doors at gigs (as far as I- or indeed anyone- can tell what class other people fall into/come from)... in terms of perceived traits of indiepop: niceness, a liberal socialist outlook, bookishness... I don't see those things as inherently middle class but perhaps I'm being fairer than most
If every one else is arsed off and done, I'll just have a last word on class.

RITH, I think, is spot on on racism, but I think class is a lot weirder than you give it credit for, especially in the UK as it's cultural as well as economic. In that way, you end up with a huge range of people described as middle class, ranging from people with white collar jobs on low wages with a few Lladro figurines to people earning 100-150 grand a year who think they're just ordinary people, because everyone's middle class now, or so we're told. And lots of bookish university graduates earning about or below the average, either to do the things they want to or, increasingly, because they can't get anything else. Which might explain why there seem to be a lot of people being defined as a middle class elite who aren't at all wealthy, doing what they can in very little free time and being slagged off for it because they have the cultural signifiers (niceness, a liberal socialist outlook, bookishness) of the middle classes.

Well, what have we learned?

Fuck all.

Not to dredge up the twee thread.

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Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by linus » Tue Aug 05, 2014 23:36

Yeh, I'm thinking it's probably for the best that I just shut up and leave Anorak be, I'm a dick, I've had that confirmed (by my own typing) today

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Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by Trev » Tue Aug 05, 2014 23:40

a fog of ideas wrote:Yeh, I'm thinking it's probably for the best that I just shut up and leave Anorak be, I'm a dick, I've had that confirmed (by my own typing) today
Yr not a dick.

The best response to this thread is the one I've used loads of times:

KILL

Just don't bother with it, as it's a pit of snakes and heartache and not worth the hassle.
not really here

noLooking

Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by noLooking » Wed Aug 06, 2014 00:09

a fog of ideas wrote:Yeh, I'm thinking it's probably for the best that I just shut up and leave Anorak be, I'm a dick, I've had that confirmed (by my own typing) today
Don't do that, anorak'd collapse without you and I'd be left with the task of reading all the threads till kingdom come, or Gordon kicked me off.

Then again, that's all I do anyway : )

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Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by linus » Wed Aug 06, 2014 00:16

I'm not looking for 'you're not a dick' or 'stick around' type pleasentries, I just regret bothering when I didn't have very much of anything to say anyway, I was just typing for typing's sake, it's sad really

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Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by RITH » Wed Aug 06, 2014 00:52

I think it's potentially a very interesting discussion. Not so much the twee thing, we've done that plenty, but the whole perception of the community from within and from outside. I may be too much of an outsider/exception to really have a feel for what's going on in the UK 'scene' though. For starters, the whole class thing baffles me, and I don't have enough information about it to give a valid opinion.

It's almost 2 AM. I should just go to bed, shouldn't I? I'm supposed to be sick, after all.

Twee = bad choice
Racism = bad
Class system = bad

Goodnight!

noLooking

Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by noLooking » Wed Aug 06, 2014 05:37

Yeah, I just got the feeling that I kept leading it down blind alleys and finding what I might have expected to find there, wasn't passing any comment on the generally interesting contributions. I'll stop apologising eventually.

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Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by ben-g » Wed Aug 06, 2014 20:14

When the aliens dig up the internet in the year 50,000 they may well note this exact discussion as when humans achieved peak pointlessness!

noLooking

Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by noLooking » Wed Aug 06, 2014 22:41

ben-g wrote:When the aliens dig up the internet in the year 50,000 they may well note this exact discussion as when humans achieved peak pointlessness!
Have you never seen Facebook?

User 1 - 'Mmmm, chicken for tea!'
User 2 - 'Chicken? That does sound nice!'
User 3 - 'Don't like chicken' : (
User 2 - 'How can you not like chicken? What do you like?
User 3 - 'Like golf'
Etc.

I agree with RITH that this could have made for an interesting discussion. The problem is that we simply failed to have it. Actually , having a look through, it's not so bad as all that, just it doesn't get to where it might have gone.

I think I'd probably better stick to putting up videos and making up silly band names.

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Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by ben-g » Thu Aug 07, 2014 09:48

Of course you are correct andyiong - in my weakened state after reading all of this thread I completely forgot about Facebook (nice summation you gave there of Facebook communication by the way).

Although of course you could equally argue that the tide of human civilization turned when Something For The Weekend moved from BBC2 to Channel 4, becoming Sunday Brunch. Or maybe that is just me.

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Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by stolenwine » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:22

ben-g wrote:When the aliens dig up the internet in the year 50,000 they may well note this exact discussion as when humans achieved peak pointlessness!
lol i really hope you don't mean discussing the intersection of race and class and structural inequality is "pointless". i'm sure you don't though. right?
tell me how good it is / to wake from a bad dream / and have someone there and I will tell you / how butterfly wings stay dry in the rain
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noLooking

Re: Twee - a discussion...

Post by noLooking » Thu Aug 07, 2014 18:14

RITH wrote:I think it's potentially a very interesting discussion. Not so much the twee thing, we've done that plenty, but the whole perception of the community from within and from outside. I may be too much of an outsider/exception to really have a feel for what's going on in the UK 'scene' though. For starters, the whole class thing baffles me, and I don't have enough information about it to give a valid opinion.
ben-g wrote:When the aliens dig up the internet in the year 50,000 they may well note this exact discussion as when humans achieved peak pointlessness!
Having just had a proper read through this again, I'll reiterate that it's not so pointless as all that, though perhaps I see why some might think so. As someone on the outside (with time on my hands), I probably feel more of a fascination for these things than people on the inside, who are getting on with being the people who do/run/are indiepop. And I think it's probably unfair of me to expect answers to what are basically sociological questions from people on the ground, where it's not really possible to see the woods for the trees and you likely have as little idea as to what's behind all this stuff with race, class, in-and-outside perceptions, etc, as I do. Perhaps it's interesting to RITH for the same reasons, though obviously he's much more involved than I am. It's really no more pointless than any sociology of subcultures, I'm sure you could get some sociology PhD to look into this and find all sorts of statistics, viewpoints, etc, and it'd make some interesting reading, to me at least, and possibly be a bit uncomfortable as well.

Just reading that back, I wonder what would be involved in 'running' indiepop? I picture a big someone in an enormous chair behind a desk covered in levers and flashing lights, manipulating the indiepop world from afar, making sure a few flyers get into the hands of the unknowing in one place, perhaps dropping someone's Smittens cds behind the sofa somewhere else. Or perhaps it's a bit like that Will Self story where there are eight people who control everything that goes on in London, just by scratching their arses and stuff. Anyway...

I'm going to leave this alone now.

I promise.

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