gender equality and indiepop

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Trev
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Trev » Mon Jul 30, 2012 23:20

myhairlooksflat wrote:
Agree. But for discussions sake, at what percentage split should it be a responsibility as you say? And why not at 50/50? What we can do is to be encouraging, thinking and talking about it at the very least.
Encouraging and thinking is all good.

Devil's advocate hat on - If I was to aim for a 50/50 split would I then not be discriminating against male musicians if the pool of available talent is split 30/70. I'd be giving slots to female based bands at the expense of equally valid male musicians?

Although I'd be happy to have good female bands/members on Odd Box bills, that goes without saying.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by boney » Mon Jul 30, 2012 23:28

Trev wrote:
myhairlooksflat wrote:
Agree. But for discussions sake, at what percentage split should it be a responsibility as you say? And why not at 50/50? What we can do is to be encouraging, thinking and talking about it at the very least.
Encouraging and thinking is all good.

Devil's advocate hat on - If I was to aim for a 50/50 split would I then not be discriminating against male musicians if the pool of available talent is split 30/70. I'd be giving slots to female based bands at the expense of equally valid male musicians?

Although I'd be happy to have good female bands/members on Odd Box bills, that goes without saying.
But by doing that you'd be acting to encourage the split to become more even, providing more opportunities.. (perhaps)

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by myhairlooksflat » Mon Jul 30, 2012 23:33

Trev wrote:Devil's advocate hat on - If I was to aim for a 50/50 split would I then not be discriminating against male musicians if the pool of available talent is split 30/70. I'd be giving slots to female based bands at the expense of equally valid male musicians?
Or are would we be correcting a more older deeply rooted cultural discrimiation? I bet them skinny boys in too small leather jackets can take a step back for once ;)

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by colinsmitten » Mon Jul 30, 2012 23:40

I just like how in all of this the main concerns seem to be:

whether the data and criteria is accurate or could be improved

how folks can work to some how do better and provide both fairness and a desire to not disenfranchise anyone or put the music second, either

That the general feeling I get is that the door actually is somewhat equally open to folks who want to participate with no secret underwear contents quizzing going on

I think it is hard to claim that anyone is "taking" a performance slot from anyone else, really, because the slots aren't "owned" and no gender has a privileged claim to a particular percentage of stage time. In the case of indietracks I believe it is about the music and about community and that nobody is barred from participating based on anything. I just think they try to make a good festival out of the applications they get.

I personally don't want to be encouraged to divide people along gender lines - I'm not on a team that is the opposite of some other team. I think we can all be on the same time of people who like this music. I refuse to fall for divisive thinking, though I would agree that it is important to be encouraging to anyone with ay interest in making music. Aside from myself, none of the other Smittens had been in a band before. We just picked who was in the band based on who wanted to be in the band.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Trev » Mon Jul 30, 2012 23:41

Worked at stats for Odd Box shows since I started - broken down by years:

2009 - 25/75
2010 - 28/72
2011 - 31/69
2012 - 35/65

Figures are skewed a little as some years I put the same band on 3/4 times due to having a release out which needed selling - so it's not really a free choice for every show.
Last edited by Trev on Mon Jul 30, 2012 23:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Trev » Mon Jul 30, 2012 23:43

colinsmitten wrote:I refuse to fall for divisive thinking, though I would agree that it is important to be encouraging to anyone with ay interest in making music. Aside from myself, none of the other Smittens had been in a band before. We just picked who was in the band based on who wanted to be in the band.
Good post Colin - agree with lots of what you say.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Trev » Mon Jul 30, 2012 23:46

myhairlooksflat wrote:
Trev wrote:Devil's advocate hat on - If I was to aim for a 50/50 split would I then not be discriminating against male musicians if the pool of available talent is split 30/70. I'd be giving slots to female based bands at the expense of equally valid male musicians?
Or are would we be correcting a more older deeply rooted cultural discrimiation? I bet them skinny boys in too small leather jackets can take a step back for once ;)
;-) not had many of them play my shows!

But fundamentally I don't agree with quotas and I will continue to book bands based on what works for the show.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Pop Kid » Mon Jul 30, 2012 23:58

Trev wrote:Worked at stats for Odd Box shows since I started - broken down by years:

2009 - 25/75
2010 - 28/72
2011 - 31/69
2012 - 35/65

Figures are skewed a little as some years I put the same band on 3/4 times due to having a release out which needed selling - so it's not really a free choice for every show.
I think I can work out which year The Manhattans split up by that list :)

Obviously, being part of team Indietracks and one of the people responsible for booking the bands, it's difficult not to take a lot of this to heart. Feel free to add up the numbers for the various popfests around the world so it's not just little old us representing the Indiepop scene.

I was overwhelmingly proud of the line up for Indietracks this year, it was a dream and I wouldn't have changed a thing.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Trev » Tue Jul 31, 2012 00:00

Pop Kid wrote:
I was overwhelmingly proud of the line up for Indietracks this year, it was a dream and I wouldn't have changed a thing.
Too right. And you should be proud. Last year's was pretty fucking awesome too. ;-)
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by myhairlooksflat » Tue Jul 31, 2012 00:13

Pop Kid wrote: Feel free to add up the numbers for the various popfests around the world so it's not just little old us representing the Indiepop scene.

I was overwhelmingly proud of the line up for Indietracks this year, it was a dream and I wouldn't have changed a thing.

I intend to. And I think that will give a bigger and better picture. But I had to start somewhere, it just happened that Indietracks was happening when me and Jennifer had time to do it.

And you should be. The line up was amazing. And some of the strongest current female indiepop voices were there.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by squirrelboutique » Tue Jul 31, 2012 00:15

I likely could say more things, but being an indiepop nobody/person only qualified to discuss other things, I only want to point out something else in the methodology.

I think I read in the blog post that there was something about not counting band members who played on records but didn't perform at Indietracks. I mean, Andy mentioned that it would have been helpful and more valid to speak to bands and such, and I agree that more conversation and reliance on more than "eagle-eyes" and examining photographs could have yielded more valid results. I think that would have been especially helpful in cases of bands that may have had missing or substitute members. Surely if a band member quits or can't make it to a festival (thinking in particular about bands coming from abroad), the urgency is in finding someone to fill the role of the musician, someone who can perform the band's songs, regardless of gender. I'm not sure if that ever happened (though I did see a female bass player with Gold-Bears in Athens and not Indietracks, and I think there are female members listed on the facebook page), but surely that's something to consider as unavoidable and not something deliberately or accidentally alienating female indiepop fans and musicians.
Last edited by squirrelboutique on Tue Jul 31, 2012 00:21, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: phrasing!

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by deerful » Tue Jul 31, 2012 00:18

myhairlooksflat wrote:
Here it is in english from our post in the comments
Thanks for this, I definitely misunderstood and thought all the festivals were Swedish versions of Indietracks for some reason.

With thanks delivered, I'm gonna bow out. Anorak has produced some of the most interesting discussion on this post so far, I think, but it looks like some of my comments on this in non-Anorak places have upset some people and I feel fucking horrible about that. If that applies to anyone here, I'm very sorry if I was a dickhead and I'll shut up now.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by myhairlooksflat » Tue Jul 31, 2012 00:25

squirrelboutique wrote:I likely could say more things, but being an indiepop nobody/person only qualified to discuss other things, I only want to point out something else in the methodology.

I think I read in the blog post that there was something about not counting band members who played on records but didn't perform at Indietracks. I mean, Andy mentioned that it would have been helpful and more valid to speak to bands and such, and I agree that more conversation and less reliance on "eagle-eyes" and examining photographs could have yielded more valid results. I think that would have been especially helpful in cases of bands that may have had missing or substitute members. Surely if a band member quits or can't make it to a festival (thinking in particular about bands coming from abroad), the urgency is in finding someone to fill the role of the musician, someone who can perform the band's songs, regardless of gender. I'm not sure if that ever happened (though I did see a female bass player with Gold-Bears in Athens and not Indietracks, and I think there are female members listed on the facebook page), but surely that's something to consider as unavoidable and not something deliberately or accidentally alienating female indiepop fans and musicians.
I think Sea Lions were one of those bands as well. When I started gathering stats there was a girl in all press pics but she didn't come over. You are right, there is a difference but the few instances where it happened it "took each other out" (is that how you say it?) and didn't affect the overall by much. And again, we didn't want to change Ladyfests method as then we couldn't compare. They too had all these comments about the method but, hard-to-believe, a couple of months later is got pretty accepted.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Pop Kid » Tue Jul 31, 2012 00:28

myhairlooksflat wrote:
And you should be. The line up was amazing. And some of the strongest current female indiepop voices were there.
You should have come, then!

Team indietracks is mostly female (5 out of 7) so you've got the girls to thank for making the whole thing happen.

We also raised a heap of money for the Midland Railway charity which is the reason why Indietracks takes place every year.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by myhairlooksflat » Tue Jul 31, 2012 00:34

Pop Kid wrote:
myhairlooksflat wrote:
And you should be. The line up was amazing. And some of the strongest current female indiepop voices were there.
You should have come, then!

Team indietracks is mostly female (5 out of 7) so you've got the girls to thank for making the whole thing happen.

We also raised a heap of money for the Midland Railway charity which is the reason why Indietracks takes place every year.
I would've if I hadn't been screwed over for my holiday money by a venue owner
Instead I was in a forest.
Ah well.
Last edited by myhairlooksflat on Tue Jul 31, 2012 07:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by a layer of chips » Tue Jul 31, 2012 06:03

I'd like to point out a further anomaly; earlier in the thread knibbles said she'd bought a ukulele. I actually bought her this. As a woman she's certainly not to be trusted with her own money, and the housekeeping I give her certainly doesn't stretch far enough to fulfil one of her meagre ambitions.

Put the kettle on, love.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by boney » Tue Jul 31, 2012 07:54

I've heard about your meagre stipend.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Contravene » Tue Jul 31, 2012 08:10

On the methodology front, if you go through the Indietracks 2012 lineup and categorise the bands whether the vocals are predominantly male, female or 50:50, the spread is roughly 30:40:30.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by ketameaningless » Wed Aug 01, 2012 19:19

'It comes across to me as kind of insulting when promoters have clearly decided that because the headline act is 'female' (however that's being defined) then there ought to be other 'female' bands in support. I've regularly seen venues trying to fill up gigs, sending out lists of available slots, using 'female-fronted punk' as a genre.'


yeah, but that's TOTALLY valid. as a lad, let's be honest, why do I like kenickie, blondie,, kate nash, hole, kate nash, kate bush,...christ, even stuff like bowie or suede or morrissey/the smiths? obviously i like the music, but it isn't just that. it's something feminine, glamorous, something other than what you are. and if you're into the whole politico thing and you like huggy bear or whatever, then you have got to admit that that is because you are interested in alternative gender/political viewpoints.
and if you like marc bolan or guns and roses because you imagine that the guitarist has got a great big rock sttar dick, that's fine. there is nothing wrong with liking men, there is nothing wrong with liking women, THAT'S BASICALLY THE FUCKING POINT OF POP MUSIC. And trying to enforce some sort of statistical or false equality based on arbitrary factors like gender is, effectively, fascism.

IMO.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by indiansummer » Wed Aug 01, 2012 20:30

hmm. after seing town bike shoehorned onto bills with other '(mainly-)female' bands simply because the promoter's thought 'let's have an all-girl-bands night', i don't think it always works. same goes for my experience of playing in a 'female-fronted' punk band

two different promoters might set out with the same intention: celebrating 'female-fronted'/'girl'/'mainly-female' (inverted commas to denote detachment from possibly non-preferred terms; i'm crafty like that) bands. but a poorly-/cynically-chosen bill can make the whole endeavour seem patronising

many's the time my aforementioned old band wondered why someone had asked us to play a show with (say) some dreadful wannabe-grunge band, a slick-as-fuck indie band or even a talented but VERY-different-to-us jazz singer... 'cos they're girls' always seemed a shit response; it almost invariably made for poor gigs. i know our singer used to get really fucked off with it

on the other hand something like ladyfest can make it seem really significant and powerful - but i think that's because they're gathered there on the understanding that everything there is going to be diverse; it's a celebration of art/whatever created specifically by ladies - not a hotchpotch of bands with little considered as being common factors beyond their genitalia. context is everything.

i sorta understand the 'otherness' appeal that ketameaningless refers to, but i'm not sure that makes it completely valid reasoning. surely that 'otherness' must be subjective and rather implicit of a male perspective anyway...? hmm, i'm about to go down another lengthy avenue of thought here so i'll rein myself in at this stage

eek
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