gender equality and indiepop

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deerful
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by deerful » Mon Jul 30, 2012 18:04

MJHibbett wrote:
Trev wrote:But thats why it's a toughie, I live a fairly good life. Decent job, some spare cash etc. To people I grew up with I'd be middle class. I identify as working class based on how I was raised but when I scrutinise my life I'd say I'm more middle class than not.
And that's why it's also meaningless to say "this audience is middle class". Compared to who? Compared to the income, life expectancy and living standards of people you and I grew up with pretty much the entire population is middle class. Compared to most of the population of the world, the same applies.

So the answer to "why is the scene so middle class?" is pretty much the same as the answer to "why is the scene so white?" Good. I'm glad we've sorted the one out. I feel like The Man Who Always Says "But Why Aren't We Talking About Palestine?" At Every Political Meeting now...
I think I was the one who brought up the middle class thing initially, sorry I missed your response to it the first time, Mark. Like Trev, my evidence is observational, and this has got me wondering about where three of us in the thread have got the idea from, in part because, yes, how do you measure class?

The race thing is arguably less subjective but ultimately also observational. The social group I have met through indiepop is the least ethnically diverse one I've ever been part of, though (and I did my undergrad at one of the whitest universities in the world).
Carys wrote:
2. I'd guess that across genres, a vast majority of people in bands are men. It's impossible to quantify the relative numbers, but I have a feeling that, in indiepop, women are *over-represented* compared to who is making music across the board. I don't think it's a problem with indiepop - I think it's an issue that starts much earlier with girls not learning music (or at least not central instruments like the guitar) at an earlier age.
This, this, a thousand times this. This.

It's embedded in culture, and so no, it doesn't stand in isolation in a tiny music scene, it *is*, potentially - probably - linked to privilege and oppression and objectification and gender roles which start being imposed at birth, which all manifest themselves in a hundred thousand infinitely more serious life-altering ways than this, but it doesn't mean this isn't connected and isn't just another symptom of much deeper-rooted stuff.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by a layer of chips » Mon Jul 30, 2012 18:08

From my point of view it'd be easier to measure the class make-up of the bands playing Indietracks than it sometimes would their supposed gender.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by a layer of chips » Mon Jul 30, 2012 18:10

Also, I think it's easy to forget that class is all too often tied up with race and gender. None if these characteristics exists solely in isolation, I don't think.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by deerful » Mon Jul 30, 2012 18:13

True. I do understand why the article only focused on the one because you've got to limit your field somehow, but everything is intersectional of course.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by boney » Mon Jul 30, 2012 18:18

a layer of chips wrote:Also, I think it's easy to forget that class is all too often tied up with race and gender. None if these characteristics exists solely in isolation, I don't think.
Most musicians are middle-class. It's not easy even in this day to be able to afford all the gear you need if you're actually going to do stuff. At least most of us are middle-class socialists at heart though.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by boney » Mon Jul 30, 2012 18:19

Can someone do some swearing please, it's all got a bit well to do in here, hasn't it :p

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by MJHibbett » Mon Jul 30, 2012 18:34

snorkachu wrote:Firstly, I would like to state that Andy was not "throwing a fit", he was merely stating a reasonable opinion about the blogpost, an opinion that many people share. As for "taking it personally" - why shouldn't he take it personally, and who is anyone to decide how other people should or shouldn't react?
As the "throwing a fit" remarker, I was meaning more this:
ketameaningless wrote:seriously though, what kind of cunt collates a chart, with graphs and stuff, quantifying musical performers by type of genitals? i mean, what kind of fucking bollocks is that? it's fucking POP MUSIC. you either like how it sounds, or you fancy the people in the band, or both.

this kind of shit is why none of us ever sell any records.
Which i think qualifies!

I believe this also fulfills the request for swearing. But why aren't we talking about Palestine?

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by boney » Mon Jul 30, 2012 18:42

Was more the (perceived) overdefensiveness. Calling the STSC piece 'patronising and high-minded' etc.

But it was in the context of reading that after Ketameaningless's outburst then that that I posted, and I was wrong in reading Andy's post that way.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by linus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 18:47

I think that's why I said things are getting a little ambiguous (also tobi referring to comments that weren't made on here), I know quoting can be a trial to do and so can linking (in tobi's case, just interested to know where the boneheaded comments were made) but not everybody can be super cool and detached about what clearly can be an emotive subject

I think for clarification purposes better to be specific about who said what and where rather than make sweeping broadside references otherwise people might get a little aerated if they think, quite reasonably (or not?), that someone is being a tad dismissive of what they've had to say

in my blowhard way what I'm groping to say is if you got a beef and need to be a little dismissive of what someone's saying be specific when you call them out and tell us where they said it or quote 'em if it's here... which in this case would've meant I didn't have to spend all afternoon texting snorks wailing 'the hibstervator hats me, whyyyyy????', etc

also, hopefully ketameaningless will elucidate a little on his post

my hunch is, perhaps, he thought, 'here we go, yet another navel gazing thread' which anorak does so well and so fricking often, fortunately I don't think this thread is that, I hope it's not anyway

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by linus » Mon Jul 30, 2012 18:48

it's all groovy gravy

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Trev » Mon Jul 30, 2012 18:50

Carys wrote: 1. To the people who say "I just book/sign the music I like, regardless of gender": Would you agree with the same attitude in the cabinet? In the boardroom? It's all well and good to say "I book the bands I like" when your tastes show a gender balance (Trev, I'm looking at you) but what of promoters who rarely if ever book female musicians? Isn't that more ominous?
I've always been against quotas and tokenism. If people get where they get on merit, I'm for it. But having a level playing field to afford everyone the same opportunity to get there is probably the issue that needs to be addressed. Like Emma W said, why do women come to music later? Why do they not take up instruments?

So yep, I'm happy to book bands I like. If my gender balance was off, I'm not sure I'd question why as I listen to music with my ears and not my eyes in the first instance.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Trev » Mon Jul 30, 2012 18:54

snorkachu wrote: Thirdly, I agree with Lisa that there are more important feminist issues to be debated and fixed before we start wringing our hands about how females are represented in a niche genre. I'd rather someone decided to sort out childcare provision, equal pay, sexual harassment and the ridiculousness of illustrating a pie chart on feminism with darling little polka dots etc before indiepop is overhauled to reflect demographics.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by boney » Mon Jul 30, 2012 19:02

Trev wrote:
Carys wrote: 1. To the people who say "I just book/sign the music I like, regardless of gender": Would you agree with the same attitude in the cabinet? In the boardroom? It's all well and good to say "I book the bands I like" when your tastes show a gender balance (Trev, I'm looking at you) but what of promoters who rarely if ever book female musicians? Isn't that more ominous?
I've always been against quotas and tokenism. If people get where they get on merit, I'm for it. But having a level playing field to afford everyone the same opportunity to get there is probably the issue that needs to be addressed. Like Emma W said, why do women come to music later? Why do they not take up instruments?

So yep, I'm happy to book bands I like. If my gender balance was off, I'm not sure I'd question why as I listen to music with my ears and not my eyes in the first instance.
It's not really quite that way though is it. It's not like there's a clear hierarchy of the best bands available, you may have a choice of several of a similar stature. I don't think it's a bad thing to have a desire for gender-balance as a reason for deciding between bands, all other things being equal. There's loads of concerns, aren't there.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by boney » Mon Jul 30, 2012 19:03

In many, many ways, the polka dots issue is the bigger one.

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Colin » Mon Jul 30, 2012 19:04

If I could wade in with devil's advocaat* in hand...

You could argue that the fact there are more important issues to do with gender equality doesn't mean that this isn't worth discussing, in addition to those more pressing problems.

*copyright afogofideas

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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Trev » Mon Jul 30, 2012 19:07

boney wrote: It's not really quite that way though is it. It's not like there's a clear hierarchy of the best bands available, you may have a choice of several of a similar stature. I don't think it's a bad thing to have a desire for gender-balance as a reason for deciding between bands, all other things being equal. There's loads of concerns, aren't there.
Not saying it's a bad thing - but I again choose the the band I think will be best for the show. Choosing a line up for a show comes down to a number of factors (fan base, location, fit with other bands, challenging audiences etc) - and gender balance isn't one I openly considered - but like Carys said I am fairly lucky in that I tend to gravitate towards bands that include females.
Last edited by Trev on Mon Jul 30, 2012 19:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Trev » Mon Jul 30, 2012 19:08

boney wrote:In many, many ways, the polka dots issue is the bigger one.
Ha yeah, fucking stereotypes everywhere.*


*swearing quota up.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by deerful » Mon Jul 30, 2012 19:09

Er, how is this more pointless than any other thread on Anorak? You can argue that the arts are a waste of time and therefore that discussing women's underrepresentation across the music industry, indeed the culture industry (not just indiepop! I know I keep saying this, but it's not just bloody indiepop!) is equally fruitless, but if you're going to participate in them, you might as well make sure you're not accidentally leaving people out for stupid reasons like what they keep in their underwear.
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by knibbles » Mon Jul 30, 2012 19:11

Colin wrote:If I could wade in with devil's advocaat* in hand...

You could argue that the fact there are more important issues to do with gender equality doesn't mean that this isn't worth discussing, in addition to those more pressing problems.

*copyright afogofideas
I certainly think it's worth discussing, it's interesting if nothing else. I don't think anyone was suggesting it's not worth discussing. Think I was just attempting to put it into perspective a bit. No one said it was pointless!
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Re: gender equality and indiepop

Post by Colin » Mon Jul 30, 2012 19:14

knibbles wrote:
Colin wrote:If I could wade in with devil's advocaat* in hand...

You could argue that the fact there are more important issues to do with gender equality doesn't mean that this isn't worth discussing, in addition to those more pressing problems.

*copyright afogofideas
I certainly think it's worth discussing, it's interesting if nothing else. I don't think anyone was suggesting it's not worth discussing. Think I was just attempting to put it into perspective a bit. No one said it was a pointless thread!
I would agree with that then. I suppose the fact that it's led to so much discussion shows that it's an issue people feel strongly about, even if it's a tiny part of a wider problem.

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