my negative feelings about indiepop

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ketameaningless
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my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by ketameaningless » Mon Feb 07, 2011 13:28

does anyone else look at this little world and just see a socially restrictive and musically conservative scene, with strictly codified rules regarding dress, taste and behaviour, with loads of people in cardigans and nice shoes going to gigs and not even dancing, or is that just me?

i cant stay away from it though! it's like pic n mix in train stations. it takes my money, and my heart, and there's no point pretending otherwise, if you smell what i am stepping in at all
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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by cupcake_love » Mon Feb 07, 2011 13:36

i see were youre coming from, but i dont think i agree. if people wear clothes they dont really like, or choose not to dance or be to "indie to clap at shows", that will be their problem.

i like wearing cute 60s dresses and cardigans, and that is why i do it. but some nights when i still want to go see a gig but maybe dont feel up to dressing up as much, youll might find me in a pair of jeans (oh heavens!) and a t-shirt with messy (not in the good way) hair. i am definitely a dancer, and i dont care what everybody else thinks. if people think i am silly, so be it, but just because nobody else wants to dance, that wont stop me.

if you "disagree with the scene", (and this isnt meant to be taken as offence!) you should spend your time, trying to change it. instead of "accepting" that everyone else is too stiff to dance, try to get them to hit the dancefloor with you :)
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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by Colin » Mon Feb 07, 2011 13:40

A variant of this topic seems to come up every six months or so. For what it's worth, I'd agree with the following
musically conservative
with loads of people in cardigans and nice shoes going to gigs and not even dancing
Not sure what you mean by socially restrictive though. In terms of dress, taste and behaviour, if we can take Anorak as any kind of indiepop bell(andsebastian)wether, I think we're a fairly broad-minded group. I run an indiepop club night and I've never felt any pressure to dress a certain way. The only thing I'd see the average indiepop fan, if there is such a thing, being intolerant of is racism or blatant sexism.

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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by ketameaningless » Mon Feb 07, 2011 13:44

those are all really cool thoughts

specially this one
' you should spend your time, trying to change it'

only so much you can change by chatting on the internet i suppose. i'd better go be awesome and do some practical tasks. thanks internet!
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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by graysonscolumn » Mon Feb 07, 2011 17:07

ketameaningless wrote: does anyone else look at this little world and just see a socially restrictive and musically conservative scene, with strictly codified rules regarding dress, taste and behaviour, with loads of people in cardigans and nice shoes going to gigs and not even dancing, or is that just me?

Yep, it's just you. ;-)

Slightly less glibly, I'd posit that what might be regarded as "strictly codified rules" are, more often than not, merely a recognisable, tangible set of shared values - that's a subtle difference. I'd maintain to the hilt that the existence of those values don't imply an intolerance of other values, otherwise I'd have been drummed out of town a hell of a long time ago on counts too many to mention.

If you haven't already been, I'd suggest that a trip to Indietracks ought to disabuse anyone of some of the more broad-brushstroke assumptions of indiepopper the species;

- an array of dress and appearance somewhat beyond the narrow parameters of the bowl cut, cord kecks and granny dresses - and I'm not just thinking of my usual mess of long hair and leathers, or that eccentric button lady!

- prodigious quantities of alcohol, albeit enjoyed responsibly, for them that want it.

- too many families with children for that unhelpful "revolt into childhood" label frequently ascribed to indiepop and its fans to hold much water (NB in all honesty, how genuinely defying-of-growing-up or sexless can a genre be that begat a song such as The Field Mice's "It Isn't Forever" and also so greatly appreciates the work of Stephin Merritt, in any event?),

- DANCING. Lots of it, and not just in the tramshed to the DJ sets, either. Eighteen months on, one of my most enduring memories of the 2009 Indietracks is still being all but skittled over by Roundbitsofplastic's joyous, uninhibited human-gyroscope oscillating to La Casa Azul's splendid set, and he was certainly not the only one dancing!

I'm sure I'll think of more evidence as soon as I've logged off, but that's a few off the top of my head. Per the issue raised of musical conservatism, incidentally, how does the patronage of Dandelion Radio (and Peel before it) of so many of Anorak's number point towards anything other than the contrary?

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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by boney » Mon Feb 07, 2011 23:55

Am not bothered about 'musical conservatism' being a problem... there's plenty of original, genuine expression...you only have to count the number of distinctive voices and characters out and about doing great music.

And I'd struggle to call it 'socially restrictive' without better defining that. I don't think it's any more restrictive than any given similar subculturey type doings.

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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by Carys » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:04

graysonscolumn wrote:I'd posit that what might be regarded as "strictly codified rules" are, more often than not, merely a recognisable, tangible set of shared values - that's a subtle difference.
I agree with this.

What I find really heartening about indiepop is the shared politics of it all - the fact that most of the bands aren't in it for the money, and that I feel quite comfortable going to gigs on my own and talking to randoms, and that these days I don't even have to do that because the randoms have become real people I know.

I also often find that 'the indiepop crowd' are more likely to listen to, say, hip hop or reggae or jazz or anything else than many of those genres are likely to listen to indiepop (if that makes sense).

Certainly I'm not saying I haven't noticed what you describe, ketameaningless. I just don't imagine that other groups of people with shared interests don't have similar 'rules' of taste and dress. Of course they do: they like the same things!

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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by humblebee » Wed Feb 09, 2011 15:35

Why do we keep beating ourselves up about all this stuff? I wish indiepop fans could stop worrying about it and just get on with liking indiepop.

linus

Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by linus » Wed Feb 09, 2011 16:44

if I was a lot more assertive, dynamic, sure footed, decisive, etc I'd probably be listening to something else

the marches of john philip sousa? the baha men? late period genesis?

what exactly do people who've got their shit together listen to?


linus

Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by linus » Wed Feb 09, 2011 17:14

I had to google that

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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by Mr Bear » Wed Feb 09, 2011 17:24

humblebee wrote:Why do we keep beating ourselves up about all this stuff? I wish indiepop fans could stop worrying about it and just get on with liking indiepop.
Two thumbs up, Macca style, for this.

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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by ketameaningless » Wed Feb 09, 2011 19:25

it isn't specifically indiepop that i am uncomfortable with so much as genre generally. indiepop is a bit like happy harcore or heavy metal, it doesnt get taken that seriously really but still it is a subculture that never dies.
if you're a band, and most of the people on here are probably in some sort of band, and you have any degree of success in one genre or aesthetic, then you are kind of stuck with it forever. and you can't win, because either everything is just the same, or the new thing isn't the same, and either way it'll never be perfect like the beatles or something.

i must be one of those self hating indiepoppers.

one thing i am a bit tired of, and this is a bit pots and kettles, is indiepop songs mentioning other indiepop bands or songs. meta indie. let's not get bogged down in i dont like you cos you dont like the early manics, all that stuff. songs mentioning morrisey. songs mentioning stuart murdoch.

i guess it is easy for a genre specific type of band to get lazy and formulaic, but a great record in any genre always stands out. i just wish i could make one! all i am bemoaning is the lack of energy or excitement or smashing stuff up joyously. and headbutting people at belle and sebastian shows cos they are singing too loud doesnt count.
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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by thomasintrouble » Wed Feb 09, 2011 19:37

ketameaningless wrote:it isn't specifically indiepop that i am uncomfortable with so much as genre generally. indiepop is a bit like happy harcore or heavy metal, it doesnt get taken that seriously really but still it is a subculture that never dies.
if you're a band, and most of the people on here are probably in some sort of band, and you have any degree of success in one genre or aesthetic, then you are kind of stuck with it forever. and you can't win, because either everything is just the same, or the new thing isn't the same, and either way it'll never be perfect like the beatles or something.

i must be one of those self hating indiepoppers.

one thing i am a bit tired of, and this is a bit pots and kettles, is indiepop songs mentioning other indiepop bands or songs. meta indie. let's not get bogged down in i dont like you cos you dont like the early manics, all that stuff. songs mentioning morrisey. songs mentioning stuart murdoch.

i guess it is easy for a genre specific type of band to get lazy and formulaic, but a great record in any genre always stands out. i just wish i could make one! all i am bemoaning is the lack of energy or excitement or smashing stuff up joyously. and headbutting people at belle and sebastian shows cos they are singing too loud doesnt count.
kurt cobain was ONE OF US.

bloody hell, lighten up!!! there's no "us" or "them" or anything, just people going to gigs and writing songs and drinking and dancing and having fun. that's all.

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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by sweepingthenation » Wed Feb 09, 2011 22:07

I wonder if death metal forums have threads like this. I somehow suspect not.

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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by Mr Bear » Wed Feb 09, 2011 22:17

sweepingthenation wrote:I wonder if death metal forums have threads like this. I somehow suspect not.
'My positive feelings about death metal'.

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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by ketameaningless » Thu Feb 10, 2011 01:34

'bloody hell, lighten up!!!'

fairly dos
YEAH NOW I'M GONNA FUCK THA LOCH NESS MONSTA!

linus

Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by linus » Thu Feb 10, 2011 07:53

isn't the trick to add what you feel might be lacking/necessary yerself? because if you don't, why would anybody else? for example if you generally like something but feel it lacks some oomph, some attitude (which doesn't have to be a billy idol in leather sporting a curled lip... or maybe it does?) or if you want it to be more this or less that is to just get on and do...

if it's the consensus you don't like then kick against it... you don't have to (and I'm not suggesting you are) battle this out on messageboards... you can just do things differently or in opposition to what you find kinda' sucky about that consensus

and the consensus can often seem safe and cosy and conservative and a bit trad wherever you might find yourself

if we're saying everything is fine with indiepop, you can't beat it, it's all perfect then I can imagine somebody coming along fresh to it- who wants to be part of something- might think 'I can't really contribute anything here, they all seem to be getting along alright without me, I'll go and do something else'- likewise, if you're returning to it you might find it a bit too *nice*

I rather like that for as long as I can remember people have felt differently about the same unifying thing, that some people felt a hunka hunka burning desire to write manifestoes and kick over the statues (figuratively speaking, although that marble carving of darren hayman outside the playhouse in harlow often gets my blood a-boiling) and some have just wanted to get together and make bunting

maybe that's why it's never got stale (or too stale), maybe that's why it can still feel vital, because it wrestles with itself, draws lines in the sand (perhaps I'm talking about myself rather than indiepop here)... I'd rather pin my heart to a musical backwater that isn't afraid to be a bit restless and that can argue with itself and seemingly wants to be better than some other undefined musical form I'm using for sake of argument that's thoroughly pleased with itself or doesn't care enough about itself to try

indiepop picks unlikely heroes, what I like about it (and this is probably only in my head rather than in reality) is that it avoids the hagiographies of rock and the hierarchies of roll- I suspect other people find that to it's detriment- but I like the irreverence of indiepop, that despite all the sweetness and good natured bonhomie it can still be spiky and thumb it's nose at it's own reflection, that seems rudely healthy

the beatles are an anachronism! so are belle and sebastian! heck, you can only dig up a corpse so often so let's argue beat happening are an anachronism too (let 'em rest)! we don't need any more xerox'ed copies of copies of the jesusandmarychain or the shop assistants either or, indeed, the velvets... let's write a list

I'll lighten up but on my own terms, probably with a can of (metaphorical) petrol and a lit match, some of us still burn, y'knaa

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Re: my negative feelings about indiepop

Post by RITH » Thu Feb 10, 2011 08:46

'From a distance
This all doesn't make a lot of sense
From a distance
It seems silly to be this tense
From a distance I read it all and shrug...
Do I really give a-'


-well what I mean is: I'm jealous. At Andy's post, but what I really mean is: at anyone who actually is able to be part of this 'socially restrictive and musically conservative scene, with strictly codified rules regarding dress, taste and behaviour, with loads of people in cardigans and nice shoes going to gigs'. But besides the fact that there's no such thing going on here in the Netherlands that I could participate in, in either a positive or negative way at all, I would say that it doesn't seem true, not from where I'm looking at it. How many indiepop songs out of 100 are actually about its own scene? How much do Allo Darlin', The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart, The Just Joans, Zipper, (et cetera) really sound alike in any way? How many people actually do get a bashing for liking something that's 'not indiepop', or for wearing something that's not a polkadot dress?

A successful indiepop single is one that sells out its 300 copies. What are we really talking about when we talk about success? Is it really impossible after that to change because of scene pressure, or is it because you are the same person and you do what you do? Most criticism on here at the even more 'successful' bands seems to me to be given with either an obvious wink, or with an 'everyone is entitled to their own opinion' attitude.

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