The Cricket Thread

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JohaN
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by JohaN » Tue Jul 29, 2008 13:21

Paquito wrote:Johan, if you're still out there - why is Paul Harris playing? He appears to be the latest in a all too long line of non-spinning SA spinners (N.Boje, C.Henderson, R.Peterson). Is there no-one in SA who can turn it?
i have NO idea - i think it was a sortof "foreign glamour" thing at first (he'd hardly played any first-class cricket in s.a. before he was pciked; i think he was playing for warwickshire?)... and then he just sortof stuck around. (he doesn't even bat, which has traditionally been sortof expected from spinners in the s.a. line-up)

it's a cliche, and not altogether true, but our pitches here don't really turn - you're on a bit of a hiding to nothing trying (that's the usual argument, anyway) and spinners are often treated as holding bowlers while the seamers rest up.
(if i had to speculate on the reasons for this, i'd probably point to the fact that sport - white sport, at any rate - was massively dominated by rugby, and i think we play cricket with a bit of a rugby-playing mentality too: by which i mean that we treat it as a game of physical courage and exertion, and a sortof mano-a-mano game. the quick's try to hurt the batsmen, and the batsmen try to tough it out... which is also, i think, why we've tended to produce gritty, slow-scoring batsmen, with a few exceptions.

spin, by contrast, is more of a cerebral, patient enterprise... and i think kids who are focused more on rugby see it as wussy and boring

then there's the coaching element: the levels of coaching here tend to be pretty low - and it's easier to teach yourself how to be either a quick or a "slow bowler" (as opposed to a "spinner") by yourself; to be a real turner, you need a lot more specialist coaching, i think (with paul adams being the obvious exception: and yet, he's probably the only recent s.a. spinner who has actually turned it, BECAUSE - as his action shows - he was largely self-taught)

(for next week's "johan's cricket sociology seminar" we will be discussing the topic: "whites: an appropriate dress for post-apartheid cricket?")

oh, and in other news: andre nel in "i'm a complete fucking nutter" shocker
http://www.google.co.za/search?hl=en&sa ... ther&meta=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i hope trescothick is suitably humbled in his "i'm so mentally unstable" pretence
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by andyroo » Tue Jul 29, 2008 16:28

JohaN wrote:
Paquito wrote:Johan, if you're still out there - why is Paul Harris playing? He appears to be the latest in a all too long line of non-spinning SA spinners (N.Boje, C.Henderson, R.Peterson). Is there no-one in SA who can turn it?
i have NO idea - i think it was a sortof "foreign glamour" thing at first (he'd hardly played any first-class cricket in s.a. before he was pciked; i think he was playing for warwickshire?)...
So, a kind of Sarfie Darren Pattinson then.

And I think Nel's "gunther" regret this. Er.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Mr Bear » Tue Jul 29, 2008 16:36

I've got a feeling that Nel's going to get loads of wickets in this test. He's just the kind of bowler that England traditionally shit themselves when facing...well, that and leg spinners...and part time trundlers.

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by humblebee » Tue Jul 29, 2008 16:59

PandaBear wrote:I've got a feeling that Nel's going to get loads of wickets in this test. He's just the kind of bowler that England traditionally shit themselves when facing...well, that and leg spinners...and part time trundlers.
...and the kind with hands.

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by andyroo » Wed Jul 30, 2008 09:34

humblebee wrote:
PandaBear wrote:I've got a feeling that Nel's going to get loads of wickets in this test. He's just the kind of bowler that England traditionally shit themselves when facing...well, that and leg spinners...and part time trundlers.
...and the kind with hands.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by graysonscolumn » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:33

Paquito wrote: Why is Paul Harris playing? He appears to be the latest in a all too long line of non-spinning SA spinners (N.Boje, C.Henderson, R.Peterson).
Tim Shaw, Pieter Strydom and Peter Kirsten, too (the last two named in an all-rounder capacity, I think), if your memory stretches back that far.

Pat Symcox enjoyed a degree of success as an off-spinner, if memory serves, but very much more in the one-day than five-day format.

gc
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by graysonscolumn » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:48

JohaN wrote:
paul adams being the obvious exception: and yet, he's probably the only recent s.a. spinner who has actually turned it, BECAUSE - as his action shows - he was largely self-taught
You couldn't teach that action - that was fearsome contortion! I was always waiting for him to snap in half at the middle.

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by JohaN » Thu Jul 31, 2008 21:01

(hi jeremy!)

goodness! your knowledge of sa cricket astounds and delights me! :)
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by nocultureicon » Thu Jul 31, 2008 21:53

Thank God for Freddie today. And Jimmy A - so many nearlys for him but a staggering piece of fielding from his own bowling when all around him were appealing for LBW.

The batting needs to be sorted out very quickly though and I honestly think that they should have picked Broad as a batter that can bowl because at the moment he's the only batter that takes the fight to the bowlers - the others are having a collective identity crisis right now.

Need to skittle them for less than 30 runs tomorrow to even stand a chance.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Mr Bear » Thu Jul 31, 2008 22:38

nocultureicon wrote:
The batting needs to be sorted out very quickly though and I honestly think that they should have picked Broad as a batter that can bowl because at the moment he's the only batter that takes the fight to the bowlers - the others are having a collective identity crisis right now.

.
It's a damning indictment of English batting but I agree with you. I was reading some reader comments on Aggers' BBC blog, and quite a few people were advocating bringing Robert Key in...as captain! I mean, I love him for what he's done with Kent in recent years and think there is a case for recalling him, but steady on chaps!

I'm putting a fiver on Vaughan to get a century in the 2nd innings.

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by nocultureicon » Thu Jul 31, 2008 23:44

PandaBear wrote:
It's a damning indictment of English batting but I agree with you. I was reading some reader comments on Aggers' BBC blog, and quite a few people were advocating bringing Robert Key in...as captain! I mean, I love him for what he's done with Kent in recent years and think there is a case for recalling him, but steady on chaps!

I'm putting a fiver on Vaughan to get a century in the 2nd innings.
Aggers is great really and he should be part of the selection team (as should Botham, Gower and Boycott as they are the most vocal critics who know the system inside out).

Yeah, Key has been tried, tested and has failed when he's been brought back. Very good player but has those "International Nerves" that many batters seem to contract when they have the three lions on their jumpers again.

As for the wicketkeeper....well...Lancashire aren't using him nearly enough sadly, but Gareth Cross could really be the answer. Great catcher and hitter of the ball.

That said about second chances, I'd seriously consider giving Kabir Ali another chance for England - first to 50 wickets this season.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by humblebee » Fri Aug 01, 2008 08:20

Simon Jones is bowling at full pace again and taking wickets for Worcestershire, isn't he? Surely he's got to be top of the list of quick bowlers knocking on the door.

I do think Hoggard deserves another look as well, if he's playing well for his county. Harmison, fair enough, had a lot of chances, shot his bolt; Hoggy, though - his loss of form seemed pretty short-term to be dumping him on the scrapheap. His attitude's always been spot on and he seems to be able to get a wicket when no bugger else can. Opening batsmen fear him.

If Broad is the best that the new generation can offer, there's nothing wrong at all in going back to Jones and Hoggard - proven test-class bowlers with a tough mentality who've got a few years left in 'em yet.

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by nocultureicon » Fri Aug 01, 2008 09:11

Yeah, but IMO you can't pick Hoggard and Sidebottom in the same team - though I'd have Hoggard first. Jones would replace Anderson if he's fully fit - as much as I like Anderson he doesn't have that aggressive streak that Jones has and is prone to extended periods of waywardness. It's quite odd that despite imporving his economy rate he's taking less wickets!!

Freddie has provided the fire that we had started to douse and right now Monty is a spectator. Broad doesn't take wickets at an extended rate, but should be in ahead of Collingwood - you can't pick him at the moment on the strength of his fielding. Broad could even bat at 6 and provide the anchor between the batters and the bowlers that Collingwood is failing to provide.

And Vaughan needs a kick up the arse, and quick!
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by humblebee » Fri Aug 01, 2008 09:33

Fair points, particularly about Anderson - yesterday showed how he can still fail to make the most of perfect swing bowling conditions. At his best, on a muggy day, he can be almost unplayable, but his best is so elusive.

I do think there's a danger of overestimating Broad's long-term ability with the bat though. He's had some great knocks for England so far but he only averages 26 in first-class matches, so we could be looking at a Phil De Freitas type of not-quite-all-rounder rather than a long-term successor to Flintoff. That said, I hope he stays in the side because he's quite nice to look at.

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Mr Bear » Fri Aug 01, 2008 09:48

I know what you mean about Broad - he's clearly got a decent batting brain but when you hear Boycott describe him on more than one occasion as reminding him of Sir Garfield Sobers you think that we might need to calm down about him a bit. He is pretty though.

Anderson has improved a lot in recent years, so I think it would be a bit harsh to drop him in the basis of a couple of not-so-good tests, which is why I agree with what you say there about Hoggard, Pete - he was so good for so long for England that I think he's been really unfairly treated. I think both of them have got that edge, that bit of extra class when needed that Sidebottom hasn't got.

What about Owais Shah? I admit to not being a fan of his when he first broke into the England set-up, but he's really come on as a batsman, and in recent one-day internationals has really looked the part. He must be wondering what he has to do to get into the test squad, particularly with others so out of form.

One more thing - Alastair Cook should be the next England test captain, in my opinion.

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Mr Bear » Fri Aug 01, 2008 09:57

For the record, this is what my side would be for the next test. While I'd definitely have Simon Jones back before long he was out for so long that it'd be good for him to get through a whole season of county cricket, then maybe bring him in for the winter in place of either Anderson on Broad...or rotate them depending on the conditions of each individual wicket. It's pretty much last chance saloon for Vaughan.

Strauss
Cook
Pietersen
Vaughan (c)
Shah
Flintoff
Prior (wk)
Broad
Anderson
Hoggard
Panesar

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Paquito » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:04

I would pick Shah at 6 if they're going to persist with 4 bowlers, Collingwood has been failing at test level for too long now, so he deserves his chance. I still think Prior should come back in the test side and that Foster should get a go in ODIs, sides have probably worked out that by denying Ambrose width then you deny him his main (some would say only) scoring shot. Broad at coming in at 9 would strengthen the batting immensely, but it shouldn't be up to him all the time to rescue the innings, the top 6 have to produce more consistently. That leaves Anderson/Hoggard/Sidebottom/S.Jones/Harmison fighting it out for one bowling spot, only a muppet would drop Sir Monty. Hmm...

So, I imagine everyone would be itching for Flintoff to find his batting form so he can slot in at 6 and therefore you can pick 2 out of the 5 above. However, the selectors are probably also itching to get Simon Jones back in there, I wouldn't be surprised to see him selected for the ODIs against SA. I dunno, I've said it before that England aren't as good as everyone says they are or should be, I think there's frailty throughout the side, they're all capable don't get me wrong but they're too prone to mental lapses right now.

In other news, I see Sehwag scored 201* out of India's 329ao!
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by humblebee » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:04

You'd leave out Bell? (I don't mean that to sound incredulous, just intrigued!)

Vaughan might benefit from being moved down the order - didn't he ease back in at four or five after that long injury lay-off? Seemed to do the trick then. Trouble is, there just isn't another natural number three in the line-up: Pietersen is too reckless and Bell not tough enough.

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Mr Bear » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:06

humblebee wrote:You'd leave out Bell? (I don't mean that to sound incredulous, just intrigued!)

.
Whoops! No, I definitely wouldn't leave him out, I just forgot about him...oh I don't know what to do now. Drop Vaughan!

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by graysonscolumn » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:15

JohaN wrote: (hi jeremy!)

goodness! your knowledge of sa cricket astounds and delights me! :)

Ta! Blame it on too many years of listening to Radio Five Live incessantly...

gc
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